Sunday, October 01, 2006

Argumentation 101

.... So what did I learn in my one month long sabbatical? Nada. I really did nothing but detox from life, from myself, from you (Ha!), from them, from it, from Bush, from newspapers, from war, ........, but, I did gain this. We; you and I, dis-agree on a lot of things. Most of the time not because of what we say, but because we don't know the root of the other person's argument. Because our timing is off ever so slightly from the receptor's. (I can just hear 5th estate sharpening his fangs, "this posting is nuts!")

Let me give you the most divisive issue of our time, Abortion.

Emotionally I am against it. To this very day, I suffer the loss of an unborn child I never knew, a face I never touched, and a name I never gave. Enough said. Partial birth? Don't even come near me with that argument (thanks for Always on Watch for the reminder), I cant think of (and maybe some of you can) one good reason why this barbaric procedure should ever be done.
I am against it. I cannot believe this to be good for anyone. Not the mother suffering the indignation of her heels tossed up on stirrups, not the surgeon performing the Hoover maneuver; and certainly not the glob of cells we call a fetus (but conveniently, not a person). How can we save the freakin' whales, the trees, and every stray cat tossed about and selectively not give a shit about life growing inside a woman? The indignation of P.E.T.A railing for the ethical treatment of animals rings hollow when a society draws the moral line in protecting its own procreation process.

Religiously I am ambivalent. Although I am a believer in a higher power I am not beholden to the writings or interpretations of the bible, the Koran or the book of Mormon, especially when its teachings and visions have led to more wars and killings than anything else known to civilization. (I can just hear my family groan after that little morsel of information,... sorry Mom and Dad, you raised your son to think outside the church,... er, box)
I am pro-choice. Why? Because I believe in the creature called woman. I believe that MOST of the time, when all comes to pass, and when she looks at herself in the mirror of her own compass, SHE will bring to herself the best choice. Most woman choose to bring life. Most woman choose the joys and pains of birth. Most woman choose wisely and follow the vestiges of their inherent virtues. So logically, I am not going to permit that we as a society invade the castle that is a woman's body.
I am pro-choice. My soon-to-be-in-expiration Libertarian ass just does not comply with ANY intrusion of Government or society on my private liberties (although a future posting tells why I am not so militant on this matter anymore). No matter how painful the personal memory of abortion is to me as a person, my political belief trumps my emotional pangs over the subject. Period.

Legally, there is no question. The law is the law. Roe V. Wade says that this which nicely complies with my political belief, also happens to be the law of the land. And LAW reigns supreme. Otherwise what kind of society are we if we cherry pick the laws we want to follow? Abortion is LEGAL, just as entering the country under a barbed wire is ILLEGAL, just like owning a firearm (in some cases) is LEGAL, just like discriminating for racial reasons is ILLEGAL. Simple. Its the law, so it trumps whatever argument this mellon of mine can conjure.

How do your issues measure up? Are you arguing them with the same root arguments as the person you are espousing them towards? You may be talking French to his Spanish, ying to his yang,.. insert whatever florid metaphor in here. You know the drill.

The next time you start a pissing party with someone who is just rattling your cage, pushing your buttons, and you just don't understand how he or she doesn't "get it", take a little breath and ask yourself, what is the angle of his argument? is it emotional?, Logical?, moral?, religious? Political? or Legal? You figure that little tidbit, and you'll be surprised how much easier it will be to piss on him or her. Peace.


Always On Watch said...

ask yourself, what is the angle of his argument? is it emotional?, Logical?, moral?, religious? Political? or Legal?

Good point!

On the matter of abortion...I can understand that some see a gray area with regard to first-trimester abortions. But those late-term abortions, sometimes referred to as "partial birth abortions"? I have emotional, logical, moral, and religious objections. I also think that partial birth abortions should be illegal. With today's technology, I believe that a woman has no excuse for waiting--most of the time. I do know of some medical abortions done in late term, to save the life of the mother.

Have you ever read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and/or Lois Lowry's The Giver? How close are we coming, in the near future, to eugenics?

Truth-Pain said...

AOW! Thanks for stopping in. Great point and something I have yet to address, the late abortion angle. I will ammend my posting to reflect this.
Thanks for the book notes, I will make sure and pick those up. It is a fascinating subject to me; not because of the dark and sad topic, but from the whole social engineering implications.

betmo said...

most folks don't have late term abortions.

Truth-Pain said...

And thats a good thing Betmo...

D.Daddio Al-Ozarka said...

I'm pro-choice too! I just think the choice is made when a woman decides to take the chance.

After that she has responsibility to the child she has inside.

Theat's where the law SHOULD come in.

defiant_infidel said...

Nice to see you back. Interesting post, also well written.

Legally, I am pro fetus murder, because I respect the law. Logically, I see the act of fetus murder as necessary only when the mother's life is in eminent danger ...and if she chooses it.

Politically, morally and religiously I am pro baby. Why shouldn't someone get their crack at life? How do we have any say in that determination for the unborn? We already had the choice to not make a baby.

I think it is an area that emotion should not participate in, like so many others. I'm so glad Samantha got her chance ...and I know you are, too.

Hope you are doing better.

Truth-Pain said...

Al-Ozarka: I feel you man, I really do, I wish I could make a judgement just based on one or another angle. The funny thing about your comment is that I can remember a specific era in my life where I would have said the same thing, I kid you not.
Having said such, I respect your opinion, no matter how close or far it is from mine.

Defiant Infidel:
Great reply and better summary. I was struck by your mentioning that this is one area we should not let emotion rule the day,... and I wondered if I could do that,.. on any topic or issue,.. great food for thought.
Thanks for the compliments and thought of my Daughter,... her not having a little baby brother or sister by now was the Genesis of this musing,...
Thanks for stopping by...

Brooke said...

It's good to see you back, TP!

Personally, I am with Daddio: Birth control, now obtained cheaply, and sometimes even at NO cost (and in the case of teens, without even needing parental consent, which is another rant entirely) through Planned Parenthood now makes abortions completely unneeded. If you have an "oopsie" there is the "72-hour pill."

Once the pregnancy is confirmed, the woman of course has the option of adoption... If she really doesn't want the kid anyway, it's a win-win. There are families who would die to have a baby, and will even pay for prenatal care, ect.

Anyway, I think I'm just trying to get across that there are SO many OTHER options.

betmo said...

for me the real clinker is that too often abortion is tied to contraception. i am about prevention and abstinence only policies don't work. provide safe, inexpensive contraception with the proper education on safety- and your abortion rates go down and everyone is happy. people are going to have sex. they don't always want children. don't try to legislate folks sex lives and there aren't as many issues.

defiant_infidel said...

TP, I am honestly surprised at your suggestion that you are not sure if you can resist letting emotion dictate your opinion. I know none of us without emotion, yet I have read no post you have authored here that is scribed solely by it. It is but one tool in the toolbox ...sometimes perhaps an "anti-tool". Your posts are an eclectic, combined effort and I believe you use all your tools, sir. Very well, too, I might add. :-)

Publius said...

I’m with betmo. Unless you are a medical doctor who has studied STDs, then I doubt a single one of us knows everything there is to know about when it comes to sex, and what you can get and how, and what you can’t get from doing one, and what you can get from doing something else. If we teach kids the real dangers involved, there would be a lot less unwanted pregnancies.
It’s like when preachers use to give the Fire and Brimstone sermons. Don’t try to scare people into doing good; scare people from doing bad.

TP, glad you have you back.

Truth-Pain said...

I agree, maybe i did not understand Daddio's initially (sorry Daddio, I was sleepy,..) but you guys make great points.

How did you know about my sex life anyway?... thats me!! I want sex w/o the offsprings.... :)

Thanks again for your thoughts,.. maybe what I meant is that although I may choose to drop the emotional angle from my final say, that does not mean emotions did not play a major part in coming to a "non-emotional" conclussion at the end.

Glad to be back in the pond, i've missed your rants man,.. ill be headed over soon :)

Truth-Pain said...

... has is occured to anybody how these discussion swayed into the example of my posting and not the subject of my posting itself?.... does that not lend creedence that an emotional-button of an issue can take our attention away from something that drew us towards the conversation in the first place?.... just wondering here....

Obob said...

as much fun as abortion is to debate, I don;t like to because the people I tend to argue with have made up thier mind n the issue and it results in a war of words and not really debate, just talking points.
great to see you back truth pain, and to throw in my two cents. I am pro-choice. The child should have a choice in the matter.

betmo said...

tp- what drew us into conversation was you and our desire to interact with you. :) so yes, i guess i would have to agree with you that we have gone far afield in that regard. i don't know why the abortion issue is such a heated one. a fetus' death is no more heinous than the deaths of the amish girls that took place this past week. i think folks just need to have something devisive to fight over. homosexual marriage is another. the list goes on. the bottom line is i think more folks are alike on the issue than is let on. i don't think many are for late term partial abortions period- but again it is tied to the bigger issue. it is an all or nothing proposition and there is no room for compromise. that is the real issue.